The Speed Attribute
There are currently 20(!) different speeds in TGGW (i.e., the
speed attribute can range between 1-20 for you and monsters).
speed determines how many turns you have to wait before acting. Turns are divided into 20-turn segments, and within a 20-turn segment a character may act
speed times evenly distributed over the interval. A character with
speed 1 may act only once during this interval whereas a character at
speed 20 may act all 20 turns.
Having 20 different speeds is really not necessary. Having one character act 20 times more often then another is a ridiculous extreme case that could theoretically happen (you could have been repeatedly slowed and meet a wasp which you hit with a speed-coated sword). I originally envisioned having all attributes ranging between 1-20 for clarity but this is something that I’m moving away from now.
What really matters is if you are faster or slower than a monster (can you run from it/chase it or not?). How much faster or slower rarely makes much of a difference unless the difference is really huge or really small. In addition, items that alter speed are very rare and your speed attribute is rarely changing more than by 1-2 points during a game anyway. In other words: having 20 different speeds does really not contribute to the game.
I have reduced the number of possible speeds from 20 to 5. A segment is now instead 5-turns. In all other respects, speed works just like before. Five speeds is much more reasonable and still allows for great variety. A speed 5 character may act 5 times as often as a speed 1 character which is an amazing advantage without being too crazy.
Normal speed was previously 5 (1/4 of max 20). Normal speed will now instead be 3 (3/5 of max 5). You and most monsters start with a speed of 3.
Speed as a Status Effect
With only five speeds, speed is no longer justified as an attribute. Instead it is now a status effect, and the five speeds can be categorized as follows:
- Very slow (speed 1)
- slow (speed 2)
- normal (speed 3)
- fast (speed 4)
- very fast (speed 5)
You will start with normal speed (3) and so will most monsters. Normal speed does not count as a status effect but part of your normal baseline character. A character’s or monster’s speed is only announced if it differs from baseline speed of 3.
The rationale for removing the speed attribute and replacing it with a status effect is the following:
- It makes room for other attributes.
- Speed rarely changes and rarely by much.
- Having only 5 values makes it less important as an attribute.
- Status effects alerts you more, and highlights its importance instead of showing it as a number that you just glance over.
- The speed mechanic is somewhat hard to understand and explain (turn segments etc). However, the exact mechanic is not important to understand, which means that the number benefits of being abstracted into a descriptive name.
- It reduces information overflow a bit since it is not displayed under normal circumstances.
Monsters and items had to be rebalanced for this change. One consequence is that speed items are now even rarer. This is because an increase in speed is now even more valuable than before. Being two categories faster than the original means being at least as fast as any monster in the game. You can no longer train speed and several items got their bonus speed removed. I hope this makes speed more fun to find.
Another interesting consequence is that you will have fewer inactive turns. Walking on water/lava will not trigger it four times at normal speed, but only once or twice. Poison and disease effects as well as confusion stumbling will also trigger more rarely (because you spend less turns in general). .
There is one negative consequence that I’m not fond of for this change that is the result of removing speed as a number. This results in kind of a “speed algebra”. For example if a monster is “fast” and is temporary slowed, it will have “prm fast” och “tmp slow”. It is then implied that fast + slow = normal speed. If you have equipped a speed item and quaff a speed potion you will be “eqp fast” and “tmp fast” and it is then understood that fast + fast = very fast. However, it is not a huge problem and I think most will understand this intuitively.
With the simplification in combat and abstraction and reduction of speed some may think that I’m going in a reductionist kind of direction in development where I am simplifying or dumbing down. It is quite the opposite: I aim to make TGGW a more complex, rich and deep game in every way by adding more features and interaction between mechanics. Simplifying and clarifying the core mechanics makes room for this. My goal is to make the game complex and deep while still being very easy to understand and get into, and I actually don’t think those two necessarily are in direct conflict.
I must say I really liked the old speed system, because the greater possible differences in speed allowed for very interesting encounters – electric sparks (I think they are called like that – those yellow “x” monsters) dealt quite low damage, but were terrifying because of how fast they moved. Being faster also felt good and was a distinct advantage, plus I don’t really mind kiting and it can feel quite satisfying when you kite a monster to death that you couldn’t otherwise possible survive fighting. However, due to the number of super-fast enemies with speed much higher that you could ever achieve, bonus speed never felt truly OP.
However, I see your reasons and hope it will work out well. It will definitely make every speed item, eqp or tmp, look like second Christmas. 😀 I also really like that you can still stack speeds – I really like the way you can stack bonuses in TGGW for a huge late-game boost. BTW, I understand it as only being able to stack two different sources (eqp and tmp, prm and ctx, etc.), not two same sources (2x eqp), am I right?
And I’m definitely not going to accuse you of overly dumbing the game. 🙂 Some devs seem to think that streamlining means removing features and restricting options, but you are doing an amazing job of creating a very, very deep game with completely transparent mechanics – it seems you know what you’re doing. 😀
I also think the old system had its charm, but sometimes the bolt monsters (x) were so fast that there was nothing you could do. A faster monster will still be very threatening. Remember that even if you are very fast you cannot run away from other very fast monsters.
I’ve tried out the new speed system quite a lot and honestly, it does not feel much different. The game just feels a bit “tighter” and less random which I think it needed.
> I understand it as only being able to stack two different sources
No, you can still stack in any way, these were just examples. Two speed potions will stack and give you “tmp very fast” status. Two speed-giving equipment will give “eqp very fast”.
> but you are doing an amazing job of creating a very, very deep game with completely transparent mechanics – it seems you know what you’re doing.
Thank you for the kind words 🙂
> I also think the old system had its charm, but sometimes the bolt monsters (x) were so fast that there was nothing you could do.
Yeah. I remember an heureka moment I had when the only way deeper was blocked by a bolt I knew I wouldn’t be able to kill, or survive rushing past. I was stealthy enough for a surprise shot, but couldn’t shoot it anyway because of how low the chance even with the surprise was. I had no chance of meleeing it with how high its block was, plus I didn’t have enough resistances. There were no unexplored rooms upwards, so no way for me to get better equipment before the fight.
Then I realized I has a wand of striking and (probably) nothing is immune to being knocked into a wall… One hit kill on the bolt. 😀 It felt so good.
Ah that’s great 🙂 Yes, that’s the one weakness bolts have: very low hp. And since they are flying they get extra hard hit by knockback… great story 🙂
small bug: maps can be in the wall at the corner in an unreachable position.
and jeweler shows the +% at ring wrongly. the first upgrade from fire ring was showed as +50 percent. not the second upgrade is +75%.
Thank you! I’m aware of the map thing, still not sure how it happens.
For the rings, not sure how you mean here? There is one bug that I am aware of that compares the first ring with the upgrade even if it is the second ring you want to upgrade. Is that what you mean or just that the statistics are wrong?
This is it. It shows +75%:
And there is an other kind of bug on the screenshot, maybe just what you mentioned, it show a +1 to the noise as well, maybe because the stealth ring is equiped too.
Ah yes, that is exactly it. It compares the fire ring with your ring of stealth. Good to know, thank you!
I just read the original post. (Are you sure it isn’t possible to go above 20 in a stat? I’m kinda sure I had higher stats than 20 :D.)
I think the only thing that isn’t clear about speed now is that if I have speed 9 and he has 6, then in which turns will I have a free move, free attack. In the new system If you meet a “fast” monster you still won’t be sure when it will have the extra attack. So still there will be those surprise deaths, when it’ll attack twice. (for example a flaming bat kills you from 6 in a turn)
What I don’t like in the new speed system is that if I’ll have two speed bonuses, then there won’t be any monster that faster than me.
And now it is possible to run from a monster, which is just a bit faster than me, in the new system 1 speed difference will be pretty huge to try to move back. at least it sounds like that.
To the speed algebra, what if you call fast speed: “speed:+”, and very fast: “speed: ++”, and slow would be “speed: -“. Then it is kinda natural, if you have speed: ++ and you get a speed: – then you will have speed: +. And then it would be easy to add more speeds if you feel like it.
> Are you sure it isn’t possible to go above 20 in a stat?
No there’s no actual limit, but speeds above 20 would not make you any faster as that would make you act every turn. I have never heard about anyone reaching speeds above 20?? You must have had an amazing luck with items in that case…
> If you meet a “fast” monster you still won’t be sure when it will have the extra attack.
Yes, this is as much true in the new system as in the old one. I don’t actually want this to be predictable. A careful player should assume that a faster monster can get a double attack in at any time. That is, if you are within range of a flaming bat’s attack, then you should assume you can be one-shot if your hp is 6 or lower (even worse if you have fire vulnerability). Luckily they can be seen from long distances…
> What I don’t like in the new speed system is that if I’ll have two speed bonuses, then there won’t be any monster that faster than me.
That’s true. It is a trade-off. But remember that you can still be slowed and there will still be monsters that are as fast as you. Also, speed bonuses are as I mentioned much rarer now.
> in the new system 1 speed difference will be pretty huge to try to move back
Also true. I do miss some of these nuances as well, but I think over-all the game is better.
> To the speed algebra
That would indeed make it clearer. Will think more about that, thank you!
Got a couple more bugs.
– You can enchant multiple armour pieces for the price of one (then disenchant for the price of however many you have)
– You can’t sell milk /back/ to food merchants (though I get that this is a matter of how such merchants actually work)
– Worst of all, auto run doesn’t cancle on surprise attacks. I died in solid flail run to an out of sight snow goblin that got 4 hits on me before autorun stopped, killing me.
Thank you for reporting!
1. Ah, strange that no one discovered that so far! Will fix!
2. Yes, it is because of how merchants work. I’m planing to not let milk be a potion but a regular food item (which will fix that). It is already a bit spoilery that they can appear unidentified in food crates…
3. Ouch, sorry about that. That will need to be addressed.
I cannot reproduce the first issue here. If I bring two leather armours the price is double compared to if I have one. The code also multiplies the price with the amount.
Was it possibly a very expensive enchant that made this happen? There is a cap of 10000 gold for enchanting anything regardless of amount?
Edit: another possibility might have been that you were dual wielding a weapon? If you do you get a discount (1.5x the price rather than 2x). If you disenchant one of them you lose your dual wield status.
btw I think it would be fun if you could dual wield same kind of weapons with different enchants, would it be that overpowered? are’t they rare enough? even if they gave you an easier game?
and a note: I think there a kinda lot of wands now that are not too useful. I’m not sure if other players use these, but i almost never: vulnerability, sleep, confusion, vision, glow, the new telepathy ones (they are super expensive to use, but i’m not even sure if I used them for 1).
and I’m not sure about the dragon armors. they are really situational, and now you can’t switch armor easily. and you can’t even upgrade them, and it is super expensive to enchant them.
(I like mutations. It is so crazy, i know they will usually make the game harder, but it is still fun and challenging, so i still drink those potions 😀 then probably die :D)
but still it can be kind of interesting to new players to realize that this a DRAGON armor and still might not worth it if you have something else 😀
There are several problems with dual wielding different enchantments:
– it would be overpowered because you could get different kind of enchantments
– it would be overpowered because it would be easier to obtain dual wielding enchanted items
– it would be hard mechanically because they might give different bonuses. Not sure how to solve that (what if one gives a melee bonus and the other doesn’t?)
– it would make the mechanics a bit more complicated as your attacks would be with different weapons (the code currently doesn’t support it)
I’m soon posting the third part of the combat mechanics. Exactly those wands that you found useless are being reworked into a new kind of wand that doesn’t consume mp.
I don’t agree with telepathy though, it is one of the most useful effects in the game later on.
Dragon armours: you know what? I really don’t like them either and they are probably going away 🙂
Wands of vision and telepathy are great – knowing about my enemies generally saves my life. 😀 The other mentioned can be a bit meh, or at least very situational.
Noooooo, you can’t take away our dragon armor! 😛 I actually like they are not OP like in many other games – it’s much more fun when there is no piece of equipment you’ll always choose over all other when you find it. However, maybe they could be bumped up to +100% resist? I feel similarly about ice cube – +75% rC is nice and very useful in certain situations – but I would probably take a shield or a candle over it, because their bonuses are useful always.
I don’t like 100% resist items really. It is ok to reach 100%, but not from a single item, not even dragon armour. I don’t actually like the ice cube either. I don’t consider these things super high priority right now but probably I will do something about them (not necessarily remove).
I definitely had it, but only once with sandals. It was 250 to enchant 3 of them. Maybe there was some other thing at play though. Everything else was normal, at least that I remebee
Ahh, that explains it! There is a minimum price as well of 250 gold! The sandals are so cheap that even 3 of them has the minimum price. I’ll have to look that over. Enchanting three should be 3 times the minimum price.