Playtest v2.3

I now consider v2.3 to be done. However, due to a quite extensive changelog and an increasingly complex game I’d like to get some feedback and possibly catch some undiscovered bugs before I officially release it.

For earlier versions I used to contact some of you to ask if you could play it a bit before the release, but this time I simply put it up so anyone who wants to can give me feedback if you are interested. This is a chance for you to influence the game and to test the new version early :)

I plan to officially release it on October 23, so if you could give me feedback sometime before that it would be great!

I have tested it quite a lot myself, but beware that there still might be serious bugs or balance issues in this test/beta version. So if you are not interested in providing feedback, it’s probably better if you wait until the official release.

You can download this version from the downloads page. I recommend to play the “what’s new in v2.3” tutorial as well as checking the latest development posts and the changelog before playing. The effect reference document has also been updated to v2.3.

Here are some posts about the biggest changes:

Comments

  1. Hello,
    thank You in advanced for the new release. I love this game, it’s brilliant, I really like the way the new mechanics and features are introduced. I finished 2.2.1 few times (exactly 9 times) and I would like to present some notes I made during playing the game:

    1. Flying creature dropped on the trap should activate or reveal it.
    2. Noticed small bug: when mysterious vein is adjacent to the door, it is impossible to close the door using mysterious vein tile. There is info: You need the tools… and the door stay opens.
    3. Using slimy floor tile to dissolve enemy corpses?
    4. Mortar and pestle: possible bug? – drain MP possible even if MP<=0. Only EP condition is checked.
    5. Wooden barrel warning, if I already have 8-9 EP.
    6. According to sleeping monster – melee (maybe ranged too) attack should have 100% chance to hit.

    I really, really enjoy the game, I wish You all the best, and I hope that game will be in constant development until :) 2050 year – after that I don't mind because I will be too blind to play TGGW.
    Best greetings from Poland (Subcarpathia area)

    Ps.
    I am going to start new "development" version tomorrow.

    1. Hi Martin!

      Winning v2.2.1 nine times is very impressive, congratulations :)
      I am really happy you enjoy the game :) I will keep updating it as long as I find it enjoyable! Thank you very much for your feedback!

      Your points:
      1. Yes they should!
      2. Yes, I am aware. This is present in the development version as well.
      3. I don’t want to encourage moving around unconscious monsters (if that is what you mean).
      4. Not quite a bug, but it is maybe a bit weird. I’ll think about changing it.
      5. Hm.. I think I prefer it like it is now. I don’t want too many prompts.
      6. Attacks against a sleeping monster is like any surprise attack and I’d like to keep it that way in order to not have too many special cases. It is true that a melee/ranged attack has no benefit if the monster has 0% block, so then the attack is as any normal attack… so maybe surprise attacks needs to be buffed over all.

      >I am going to start new “development” version tomorrow.

      I am looking forward to your feedback :) Thank you again!

    1. Well, that is how it have worked since two versions ago (that’s what aliens are for)? Or is it something different?

  2. Oh right. I saw this post but didn’t realise the beta was already up! I just played a quick few rounds in between an assignment, but I found a few little bugs/other things, mostly relating to the AoO system:

    – You’re slandering dogs! The description of a perfectly nice doggy just called it aggressive!

    – An attack of opportunity knocking an enemy unconsious can still result in it making the move away.

    – I just auto Attack of Opportunity (AoO)-ed a blink dog that moved away from me, whilst I was using fists. I could forsee not wanting to do that if I had some sort of good lethal method… And later I had the same thing happen to a rat, despite it not happening on other rats.

    – Dual-Wielding Monsters don’t seem to get two AoO as they should. And neither do I, upon further testing?

    – A giant crab AoO’d me, but then it followed too? This seems like something a fast creature should be able to do, but not a slow one…

    – In a thing unrelated to 2.3, I just realised that the giant versions of every animal is slower than it’s small counterpart, but this is not true of the giant crab…

    I do like the AoO system though. It gives a very different feeling to the early game now. I found it most significant with adjusting to not being able to shuffle around to get the best benefit of open/closed melees. I’m just so used to adjusting where I am for fights after engaging…

    1. Just a little more:

      – I take it targeting for the scroll of whirlwind is out of the picture? Because it’d be the coolest thing if you could send yourself flying into an enemy to knock them into water or somethin.

      – I can’t cast blink on myself?

      – Animals teleported into poison ivy don’t move out, they just sit there.

      1. > I take it targeting for the scroll of whirlwind is out of the picture?

        For now yes…

        > I can’t cast blink on myself?

        Oops, that’s a bug.

        > Animals teleported into poison ivy don’t move out, they just sit there.

        Hm, that’s strange. I’ll investigate.

        Thank you very much for your feedback! It is very helpful :)

    2. Hey! Thank you for playing and commenting!

      > You’re slandering dogs! The description of a perfectly nice doggy just called it aggressive!

      Hah :) Well, if it is any comfort, no dogs were harmed during implementation :p (right now it’s not possible to have a different description on neutral monsters).

      > An attack of opportunity knocking an enemy unconsious can still result in it making the move away.

      This is intentional. Your AoO happens *because* the monster moves away, so after you hit the monster “lands” where it intended to go.

      > I just auto Attack of Opportunity (AoO)-ed a blink dog that moved away from me, whilst I was using fists.

      Yeah, I think I’ll change it so that you always get prompted about AoO if you deal non-lethal damage.

      > Dual-Wielding Monsters don’t seem to get two AoO as they should. And neither do I, upon further testing?

      Hm.. yeah maybe it would make more sense if they did.

      > A giant crab AoO’d me, but then it followed too? This seems like something a fast creature should be able to do, but not a slow one…

      Yeah… it is not entirely true that an AoO takes a full turn, because it happens when the victim is not active. What it does is that it resets the victims progress towards its turn. If the crab acted very recently it loses less than a full turn. Moving away from it again should work.

      I agree it doesn’t make it entirely predictable, I will think about if and how it can be fixed.

      > I just realised that the giant versions of every animal is slower than it’s small counterpart, but this is not true of the giant crab…

      This used to be true in the old speed system, but since then I have both removed differences in speed and make slower monster rarer in general. Giant rats are also not slower than normal ones.

      Good that you like the AoO system! I like it too for the same reasons. It forces you to think more before the fights, and that actually makes you play better!

    3. Just gonna keep replying to this comment with all my things, even though I have very little this time:

      – You get prompted about AoOs twice when you leave when flanked by two enemies

      – I keep feeling like the Accuracy Ritual should improve ranged chances too… I don’t really think that there’s enough ways to build, well, builds, out of ranged attacks, and this would synergise well with Conjure Fireballs in making a ranged mage build.

      1. > You get prompted about AoOs twice when you leave when flanked by two enemies

        Good catch, will fix.

        > I keep feeling like the Accuracy Ritual should improve ranged chances too.

        I am a bit afraid of making ranged combat too powerful, but since you will almost always have limited ammo, maybe it could be reasonable. Or maybe there should be a separate wand for boosting ranged combat?

        1. I’ve noticed that with the new rock finding debuff, even when you do have excess EP and pickaxes and can nab every rock in the dungeon, you simply don’t have enough to kill everything now. I don’t think that making ranged especially powerful is tooo big a deal.

          You could make a seperate wand for boosting ranged combat, but I don’t know if it would be too niche. Although, considering that most full ranged builds have light armour anyways… It’d probably still be very much viable in a ranged run. They were quite powerful, but not too much in 2.2. I think they were in a pretty decent place, other than rocks being too plentiful. I think having more pathways to them would be nice, and this wand would work for that.

          1. Good reasoning. Making Accuracy ritual buff both attributes would also make it a more exciting find so probably I’ll buff that then.

    4. Huh, with the new booze mechanics, it’s a straight up better version than the seizure potion. This game doesn’t seem to be about that, so maybe the seizure potion could do with an upgrade? I dunno, maybe make it stronger? Give them confusion along with the other effects?

      Or maybe booze is just a little strong…

    5. I suspected this might happen. Attacks of Opportunity are /really/ weird with knockback. I was fighting a Floating Club, and I wanted to see what happened, so I induced an AoO. This is message exchange:

      Really Disengage from melee? – I get knocked back before I move, and end up one tile away.

      Take opportunity on you? – Selecting no stops anything else from happening, and the club can move forwards and catch up with me ,despite being the same speed, so I’ve just taken damage but gained no distance. But if I select yes, then it asks me…

      Really disengage from melee? – This time yes and no both cause nothing to happen.

      I’ve yet to find a wooden club and remember to test the AoO system with knockback from the player, but this is definitely a weird bug.

    6. – You can cast Charm Person on yourself, making you neutral, but not doing anything.

      – Rotten apples seem a little strong. If you’re diseased, you just get a /bunch/ of free EP from the trash rooms in the Underground.

      1. > You can cast Charm Person on yourself

        Will fix!

        > If you’re diseased, you just get a bunch of free EP from the trash rooms in the Underground.

        I think this is kind of a fair deal actually. It would still not be worth getting diseased on purpose for Ep?

    7. Sorry for all the million comments, but I’m just playing a /bunch/ recently.

      I really like how some attacks are considered harming friendlies, and some aren’t, but some things fall into one category when I feel like it should be the other.

      Notably, Chaos Bolt doesn’t aggravate, but the rod of Blinding Light doesn’t.

      1. > Sorry for all the million comments

        I put the version out to get comments, so they are more than welcome :)

        > Chaos Bolt doesn’t aggravate, but the rod of Blinding Light doesn’t (does?).

        Realized now that the chaos effect have (never!) been marked as a dangerous effect, so that’s a long standing bug!

    8. – I think that wooden clubs might need a rebalance. They’re not nearly as powerful as they used to be, because re-positioning yourself is not really a thing you can at all easily do on the fly. Or maybe they don’t need a rebalance. They’re definitely weaker, but maybe that’s ok.

      P.S there’s one suggestion that has occured to me twice so far, and it keeps /just/ evading my consciousness!

      1. I think that is one of the benefits of the AoO system, navigating around monsters with a wooden club was a bit tedious and not so difficult. You can still position yourself but it is harder and takes more thought. I like it this way! I recently won a run with a (later upgraded) wooden club, and I think they are not too weak.

        One might think that they are only useful when knocking monsters into walls, but the thing is that the knockback often prevents the monster from hitting you back and it effectively works as a better version of a shield!

        > there’s one suggestion that has occured to me twice so far

        You mean this one, or is it another one that is still waiting to be told?

        1. It’s some other one, and I can’t quite catch it! I’ll surely pick it up as I play more…

  3. Random feedback from a bunch of short runs:
    – I find it odd and incoherent that the Night Leaves are represented with a ” symbol when other leaves are displayed with an % (like other food items) but I guess it may be because you don’t have any more color available? I thought they replaced the Borovnice until I find some. Maybe make the Night Leaves a blue % and the Borovnice a blue ” like the red ” berries we can eat on ground. That would be consistent.
    – Love the animation of interrogation marks around the at when there is a prompt! Great idea!
    – Why can’t I dual wield whips anymore? :(
    – AoO are sometimes automatically applied to fleeing monsters without any prompt… Most of the time I’d have prefer not to know them inconscious actually because they can obstrucate doorways, and also Agravation penalty if using Rods or else. It did happen that the prompt appears and sometimes not while wearing the same weapon (Wrapping Fists) on the same kind of monsters (fleeing Blinking Dog).
    – Please bring back the possibility to use Pickaxe as weapons, in the name of McGyver. :p
    – The new Poison mechanic feels much more stressful but also more comprehensible and fair. Love it!
    – I’m glad you added more things! Eaglemen, Fist Wrappings, Fluffy Bunnies, etc. 😀
    – I was surprised that Milk was auto-ID, until I find it can spoil. Real cool.
    – Changing Rod of Sleep to Rod of Deep Sleep DO at last make it useful! Thanks!
    – It’s a bit upsetting when an invisible monster (Pranking Ghost…) attack and you want to move and the prompt ask if we want to disengage. We have to try each direction to find where the invisible monster is. Maybe don’t prompt and make the AoO automatic for the monster being invisible? They would make them really strong but anyway, invisibility is powerful.
    – If anything, mutations are fun (had the Bat Head!), yet I’d prefer them to be caused by events (monsters, etc) instead by just resting… or maybe if I rest near strange things ok, that may influence bigger chance of mutation but not pure randomness… see?

    1. Thank you very much for the feedback! 😀

      > I find it odd and incoherent that the Night Leaves are represented with a ” symbol

      The idea is that they actually grow on the ground(and thus use the same tile as the grass). In fact they are only found in the underground or in barrels/herb bags.

      Maybe I should make them a feature instead? Then you use activate to pick them up. That would make it feel more like you pick them up.

      > Why can’t I dual wield whips anymore? :(

      Hm.. you really should be able to. Didn’t you report that on an earlier version on reddit also? I have no idea what can be the problem. If you have the save, please send it!

      > AoO are sometimes automatically applied to fleeing monsters without any prompt

      Yes, I’ll change it so that it always prompts if you deal non-lethal damage instead.

      > Please bring back the possibility to use Pickaxe as weapons

      I have been thinking about that. The problem is that it would encourage backtracking too much (or maybe that’s good)? As it would be optimal (Ep wise) to equip it, then go mining for everything before you go back to your weapon.

      > The new Poison mechanic […] Love it!
      > […] Rod of Deep Sleep at last make it useful! Thanks!
      > Love the animation of interrogation

      Happy you like these changes :)

      > I’m glad you added more things!

      Me too :) Fist wrappings aren’t new though, they were in v2.2 as well.

      > I was surprised that Milk was auto-ID

      Yeah, I think it makes much more sense now. Previously it was actually a spoilery because you could find milk (unidentified) in food crates (and no other types of potions).

      > invisible monster promts for disengage

      I hadn’t thought about that! Naturally there shouldn’t be any prompts for those since you don’t even know if you’re disengaging. But yes, it makes them very much more dangerous… Maybe I need to rebalance them a bit.

      > I’d prefer them [mutations] to be caused by events (monsters, etc) instead by just resting.

      I heard a similar wish from another player. Maybe I should remove the rest event then. I think it will still be there in v2.3, but I’ll note that I might do something about it.

      1. > Maybe I should make them a feature instead? Then you use activate to pick them up. That would make it feel more like you pick them up.

        Because I feel there’s a lot of them, that could be interesting, so it can’t be added into the inventory but just eaten on the spot like the Berries. It’s a bit more coherent this way I think.

        >> Why can’t I dual wield whips anymore? :(
        > Hm.. you really should be able to. Didn’t you report that on an earlier version on reddit also? I have no idea what can be the problem. If you have the save, please send it!

        I do not have the save file anymore… and yes I had the same problem with Beast Fangs once. Really weird.

        > Me too :) Fist wrappings aren’t new though, they were in v2.2 as well.
        Damn! I played 2.2 a lot and don’t recall them! The richness becomes more and more interesting!

        1. > night leaves as feature

          I have realized that instant effects from features (strawberries, water barrels) can be a bit tedious if you want to use them at the right time (can lead to excessive backtracking), so I am moving towards automatically adding to inventory instead.

          I think activating nightleaves to put one in your inventory is a good mechanic that also tells you you’re picking the plant. It could also leave a patch of grass afterwards.

          > I do not have the save file anymore

          Please send if it happens again, I have really no clue what the problem can be, and it seems to be very rare.

          1. It is a tad annoying at times, but I appreciate that strawberries can be gotten without having to use inventory space. They’d just be the same as bread otherwise.

            1. Yeah I just realized that it would still be optimal to wait until picking them up even if they’d go to your inventory (to save inventory space).

              A better solution would be a risk that they disappear from their patch every time you rest.

  4. Blink Wand description say we can teleport “you or a monster” yet I can’t apply this wand on myself.

  5. It’s great to see that you still work on TGGW. I like the new features but maybe not every creature should be able to make AoOs.

    I had to walk through a room full of lava bubbles on dungeon lvl 2… yeah it was not pretty at all.

    I’d also suggest slower monsters being unable to take AoO, but I guess that’d be in contrary of some of your reasons to add AoOs (like prevention of kiting).

    1. I did notice that it was a tad… odd, for non-sentients like lava bubbles to get them. It makes weaving between them really painful now.

    2. Hey Evren, thank you for your feedback :)

      You are absolutely right, it doesn’t make sense for lava bubbles to have AoOs. I will fix that.

      And as you say, the main motivation for introducing AoOs is to prevent kiting and to make slower monsters more threatening… so slow monsters will keep their AoOs.

  6. Thank you too :)

    Something trivial that comes to mind. I really like the idea of talking monsters (the more diverse and funnily abusive the better). However, having got used to play TGGW real fast, I rarely read anything on the log, and therefore miss most of what the monsters have to say.
    I’m not sure if that’d be slow the gameplay too much, but would you consider to add an animation when the monsters actually say something? Maybe there can be an option to turn it on and off for players that don’t care about talking monsters or find it too repetitive.

    1. The interrogation marks around the @ when prompted are really cool and useful to me, maybe if the monsters have the same animation it will help not miss what it said?

        1. But they do have exactly that (a blinking ‘!’ similar to the ‘?’ when prompting)! The fact that both you and HedoNNN missed it means that it is too subtle.

          I used to have a blinking (abrupting) message like when something important happened, but that seemed to intrusive for something that isn’t gameplay-related.

          It is also possible that the blinking ‘!’ is too similar to the animation when a monster wakes up. I will experiment with some new animations.

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